tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post8325596367748956336..comments2023-06-01T10:52:44.280-04:00Comments on The Gospel-Driven Church: 10 Reasons to Under-Program Your ChurchJaredhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-23486536839004234682010-05-01T21:35:40.804-04:002010-05-01T21:35:40.804-04:00Great thoughts here. Having been a part of both an...Great thoughts here. Having been a part of both an over-programmed church and an extremely program-light church, I definitely prefer the program-light model.<br /><br />It's really powerful to see a community united in a common goal--making disciples.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17196678677722396207noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-88226996667259736362010-04-30T14:27:27.805-04:002010-04-30T14:27:27.805-04:00Superhua, you can find my review of Simple Church ...Superhua, you can find my review of <i>Simple Church</i> here: http://gospeldrivenchurch.blogspot.com/2007/11/brief-review-of-simple-church.html<br /><br />I was actually fairly disappointed in the execution of the book, but I am a fan of the concept. I liked the book's concept, but there wasn't enough Bible in it and there was too much borrowing from Apple, Nike, etc. in it for my taste.<br /><br />But as an overview to the concept of "simple church," it's worth looking into, I think.<br /><br />Another angle on simplicity but with a more gospel-driven focus would be Dever and Alexander's <i>Deliberate Church</i>.Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-38804843286638297862010-04-30T14:19:39.301-04:002010-04-30T14:19:39.301-04:00Can anyone comment on the relationship between Sim...Can anyone comment on the relationship between <i>Simply Church</i> by Rainer & Geiger and the missional movement? <br /><br />That is, is <i>Simple Church</i> a simplifying of the traditional church model or simplifying for the sake of moving toward a more missional model?superhuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08443008801696510309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-32521459561914598042010-04-30T11:32:57.742-04:002010-04-30T11:32:57.742-04:00preach it. Our church does not do
sunday school, ...preach it. Our church does not do <br />sunday school, evening service, prayer meeting, etc. We encourage families to focus on family devotions (reading, memorizing, singing), and building those relationships. Building into our families is the first line of defence against a bankrupt culture. If you don't start at home, it's hard to effectivly engage culture.Doug Hornenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-6186351309855012242010-04-30T11:23:44.346-04:002010-04-30T11:23:44.346-04:00Great post Jared! We planted Redemption Bible Chur...Great post Jared! We planted Redemption Bible Church just outside Chicago less than a year ago and have already had to make decisions to cut some programming for the reasons you gave. My two big concerns have been:<br /><br />1. That we would think movement=mission<br /><br />Just cause we're busy with a bunch of stuff doesn't mean we're actually on mission. Love that point in your post<br /><br />2. That we would be too burned out to be on mission<br /><br />If we overly program, people are too worn out to actually be on mission. They don't want to engage people who don't know Jesus, they don't want to serve their neighbors, they don't want to be the church.<br /><br />Ultimately, my big concern was that we would cease to actually be the church because we were so consumed trying to do the things we think churches should do. Super encouraging! Thanks again...Ryanhttp://www.ryanhuguley.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-3243649304975717792010-04-30T11:23:44.345-04:002010-04-30T11:23:44.345-04:00Great post Jared! We planted Redemption Bible Chur...Great post Jared! We planted Redemption Bible Church just outside Chicago less than a year ago and have already had to make decisions to cut some programming for the reasons you gave. My two big concerns have been:<br /><br />1. That we would think movement=mission<br /><br />Just cause we're busy with a bunch of stuff doesn't mean we're actually on mission. Love that point in your post<br /><br />2. That we would be too burned out to be on mission<br /><br />If we overly program, people are too worn out to actually be on mission. They don't want to engage people who don't know Jesus, they don't want to serve their neighbors, they don't want to be the church.<br /><br />Ultimately, my big concern was that we would cease to actually be the church because we were so consumed trying to do the things we think churches should do. Super encouraging! Thanks again...Ryanhttp://www.ryanhuguley.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-23449492079722505892010-04-30T10:49:34.155-04:002010-04-30T10:49:34.155-04:00Very well said.Very well said.Justin Buzzardhttp://www.buzzardblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-49514202857939786502010-04-27T22:26:18.178-04:002010-04-27T22:26:18.178-04:00Spot on brother. Churches and individual Christian...Spot on brother. Churches and individual Christians need to de-cluttter our lives, schedules and programs so that we have the time and space to have real relationship with non-believers on their turf.<br /><br />Ministry needs to become Intensely local (http://wp.me/pGYIn-aK) if we are to become truly effective in our communities. Appreciate your heart and your approach.ChosenRebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06938339625623946598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-89234072401904765532010-04-27T18:52:58.589-04:002010-04-27T18:52:58.589-04:00Ironically, I felt like I saw an aspect of under-p...Ironically, I felt like I saw an aspect of under-programming at a church I was at. The founding pastor did so much preaching and teaching that even though there were plenty of elder-qualified people in the flock they weren't doing as much teaching as they could from the pulpit. This has been rectified, possibly as much because the lead preaching pastor burned himself out enough times that he began to realize he needed to delegate preaching and teaching duties to other elders. I would consider that a problem of under-programming at an admittedly abstract level. A church that is over-programmed can often under-program, too, at least in larger churches. At the risk of invoking spiritual gifts and the Spirit's work in a church, it is probably easier for the churches that are underprogrammed to eventually fill legitimate needs than for an over-programmed church to cut out excess fat. That's my layman's opinion, for what little it may be worth.Wenatchee the Hatchethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13208892745502555715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-40438343002534247232010-04-27T15:45:22.659-04:002010-04-27T15:45:22.659-04:00I wonder about under programming. Do you think tha...I wonder about under programming. Do you think that's also possible? Can we be so "simple" that we miss opportunities to grow people? <br /><br />Just a thought.The Damerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08393936800227282813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-12083649490685118502010-04-26T21:31:07.675-04:002010-04-26T21:31:07.675-04:00In many cases "too few workers" can mean...In many cases "too few workers" can mean that the ministry is causing burn out but some churches thrive on the rush of constantly growing faster than their infrastructure can competently handle church growth (I'm strategically omitting where I was afraid I was seeing this tendency). The ministry might actually be a great idea, a necessary ministry, and something the church should be doing but church growth can damage the ability a church has to keep ministries functioning at a level where burn-out isn't persistent. The solution isn't to tell all the single people they have time on their hands because they're not married and should therefore stop being selfish and go serve in ministry. :) The solution may be to scale back ministry programs to a level where more people can do less so that they can do that "less" well. <br /><br />I ended up with machine-level burn out in a ministry and the ministry lead simply would not take the multiple hints and outright statements I made that I was dealing with burn-out. Ministries tend to be founded and led by people who find their identity in that ministry. <br /><br />One of the ironies of an over-programmed church is that if it is evangelical they don't realize that they may be given over to a "social gospel" that doesn't involve "social justice" but is still a good news of social events.Wenatchee the Hatchethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13208892745502555715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-15271757646660042882010-04-26T17:32:24.122-04:002010-04-26T17:32:24.122-04:00Actually I meant amen! Especially #8. #6 makes sen...Actually I meant amen! Especially #8. #6 makes sense also.jrsong40https://www.blogger.com/profile/04805128525130776157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-62739504176868482472010-04-26T17:29:50.083-04:002010-04-26T17:29:50.083-04:00Amen. Especially #6Amen. Especially #6jrsong40https://www.blogger.com/profile/04805128525130776157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-90953274037665607892010-04-26T14:24:36.870-04:002010-04-26T14:24:36.870-04:00Yes that is what I was trying to get at. Living o...Yes that is what I was trying to get at. Living out our faith in our daily lives and acting as a missionary of the good news of Christ wherever we go is far superior to "service to the Church machine." <br /><br />Thanks for the thoughtsDavid Willyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13758040927329673030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-85831341888845675132010-04-26T13:52:16.510-04:002010-04-26T13:52:16.510-04:00David, I think this could be true, but I have seen...David, I think this could be true, but I have seen that many times churches that bemoan "too few workers" don't realize they are burning people out and turning people off by trying to recruit them for service to the church "machine." The key to many churches in involving members has to do with volunteerism in the programs. I think that's okay to a certain extent, but there should be more emphasis on involving people in being missionaries in their daily lives outside the church program structure.<br /><br />But perhaps that's what you meant by "programs that preach or show the love of Christ."Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-64599828425259921222010-04-26T13:43:52.052-04:002010-04-26T13:43:52.052-04:00I think one of the problems that is paired with th...I think one of the problems that is paired with this is that not only do we have too many programs, we also have too few workers. We need to get better about making disciples. We are winning people to acceptance of who Jesus is and we win them to church membership, but we don't train them to serve Christ. We need to be better about making disciples. If we could effectively get the vast majority of our members, instead of 10% of our members, passionate about serving Christ we would be able to lighten the load on the pastors and ministry leaders while still hosting programs that preach or show the love of Christ. <br /><br />Any thoughts?David Willyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13758040927329673030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-53912238185888541952010-04-26T09:09:06.165-04:002010-04-26T09:09:06.165-04:00Sherry, I used "can" and "may"...Sherry, I used "can" and "may" as many times as I could in the piece, trying not to broad-brush.<br /><br />If your church resembles the New Testament church, I think that's awesome.Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-63202156739925877972010-04-26T09:06:52.407-04:002010-04-26T09:06:52.407-04:00Acts 2:46-47 Every day they continued to meet toge...Acts 2:46-47 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.<br /><br />"Here's a good test, I think: take a look at a typical over-programmed church's calendar and see how many of the activities resemble things seen in the New Testament."<br /><br />I'm not sure but I think we're struggling to do exactly what we see the early church doing in those verses, meeting together frequently for fellowship, prayer, evangelism, and service. Maybe not perfectly, maybe some "programs" could be jettisoned, but not as far from New Testament model as you might think.Sherryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04664642293286996220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-85454588162069736742010-04-26T09:02:52.995-04:002010-04-26T09:02:52.995-04:00Really great stuff. Programs have a strong tenden...Really great stuff. Programs have a strong tendency to shape how people perceive what the church is. It changes and shifts away from that which is to be understood as an assembling of regenerate Christian worshipers on a mission to what you refer to as a "spiritual YMCA."<br /><br />Your post reminds me of a lyric from Derek Webb's, "Ballad in Plain Red": "Take out the sign, forget the meal | We’ve got a gym and a Ferris wheel | I swear it’s just like the country club down the block."<br /><br />These unessential, over-programs are like junk food to little kids. Its what they need least and want most. Eventually it will make them sick.<br /><br />Again, great post.Deek Dubberlyhttp://deekdubberly.com/noreply@blogger.com