tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post9215213694080800236..comments2023-06-01T10:52:44.280-04:00Comments on The Gospel-Driven Church: Jesus Was ReligiousJaredhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-78683846111380644842012-01-14T09:54:01.604-05:002012-01-14T09:54:01.604-05:00Gonna close comments now, folks. There no longer s...Gonna close comments now, folks. There no longer seems to be a discussion but just a bulletin board of "Thanks for the critique" and "You're a jerk for the critique," and once you've heard 30 of each of those, you've heard them all. ;-)<br /><br />Jefferson Bethke and I have been in touch since yesterday on this whole thing, and I'm grateful for the Spirit of God in him. Grateful he was able to hear what I was saying about his video even if some of his defenders weren't.<br /><br />Saved by grace through faith in Christ's perfect obedience all the way to the cross and empty tomb,<br />JaredJaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-36616361978131592402012-01-14T09:51:58.631-05:002012-01-14T09:51:58.631-05:00No one's making "religion" sacred. I...No one's making "religion" sacred. I'm just using it in its normative, biblical sense -- law-keeping. And in that sense, Jesus was religious.<br /><br />I agree, though, that if you define religion negatively -- which is a recent innovation that has its place, as I mention in my post in a paragraph most commenters seem to be overlooking -- then Jesus was not religious.Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-48987475488715392532012-01-14T09:45:45.255-05:002012-01-14T09:45:45.255-05:00I think there's such an agist quality to the c...I think there's such an agist quality to the criticism that probably should be addressed further. Second, I think most people feel compelled to criticize it because they see less commited Christians approving it or posting it. Because in the man's own description, he says he is posting about FALSE RELIGION. There are no real charges that can be leveled against him. The writer does not speak for the youth of America. He speaks for himself. His understanding of the nature and relevance of religion is not wrong. For one to argue that Jesus was religious overlooks very basic texts and images of the New Testament. I'll just mention one. When Jesus died, the tearing of the veil in the temple highlights Jesus' dominion over religion. There was no more holy or sacred spot in all of Judaism. Everything it represented was man's religious way to get close to God. And yet it was blown away by the work of Jesus. He did not establish a religion. We use religion to understand who Jesus was and his relevance in our lives. Don't make the word "religion" sacred. It isn't.Roberthttp://youtube.com/user/wohnerontheradionoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-33745393452247984962012-01-14T08:59:15.490-05:002012-01-14T08:59:15.490-05:00Firing bullets? Bashing? That's what you got o...Firing bullets? Bashing? That's what you got out of my post?<br /><br />I'm thankful Jefferson himself did not read it the same way, and I'm confident we are both sharper because of our conversation yesterday.<br /><br />Thanks for your comment.Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-43991697558258828732012-01-14T06:53:19.735-05:002012-01-14T06:53:19.735-05:00Jared, the guy has proclaimed the gospel to over 6...Jared, the guy has proclaimed the gospel to over 6.5 million in less than 3 days – and plenty of unchurched people. he’s opened the door for many stone hearts.<br /><br />while i may agree with you about a few of the things that you said…you’re shooting bullets against someone who attends a church that is associated with The Gospel Coalition (Mars Hill Church) and not helping the cause of christ. there are enough people out there bashing.<br /><br />I hope you’ll take this in love and remove this post. I think he’s helping more than hurting (with minor inconsistencies) and you’re hurting more than helping the cause of Christ.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-1622794566411751442012-01-14T03:37:47.588-05:002012-01-14T03:37:47.588-05:00I love what you said here: "Right. Very few p...I love what you said here: "Right. Very few people saw the description b/c they just viewed it in a newsfeed, not on YouTube.<br /><br />But a point others have made previous is important too: when we say "religion," we understand that "self-righteousness" may be meant. But when the world hears "religion," they don't know the jargon. So they think we're saying Jesus hates "doing good works, going to church, being 'traditional'" or what have you."<br />That was perrrrfect! :) exactly what the problem is haha! The whole problem is semantics..the meaning people give to religion, but the Word of course stays the Word! <br />David and Christina...I was the second anonymous and didn't have my name on here because I hadn't even seen the button before now to be honest, I just went straight down haha and by no means was I trying to speak "unlovingly" I was speaking as a Christian to another Christian (sister to brother) because as Christ followers I believe we should know what the guy meant..we all know what he meant because in reality the word religion as Jared beautifully explained, has turned into something negative within the Christian culture itself. So I apologize if my "duh" sounded mean but I wasn't trying to sound the way it might've sounded.. (again semantics lol) <br />Since I too see both Bethke and Jared as brothers in Christ I guess I thought I was just being honest and direct, suggesting that we all should know what Bethke "meant". He meant hypocrisy etc... and I appreciate all y'alls corrections of the word..It's unfortunate that it took on that negative meaning but at the same time we know that the whole point of being true Christians is to be light (Romans 6:14), and to imitate Him, who did not sin and was perfect. -He followed the Law perfectly but as He knows, we are not perfect. That is why many of us have said, he took on grace instead of expecting the following of the law because he knew that as humans (like the Pharisees) we can follow the Law and know it front and back but not live it. We can know it and still fail. Once again, that is not to say that we can use His grace as a license to sin, but as Christians we "get" that. (or we should if we can call ourselves such). And if we don't see that grace part though, what did Jesus do when He went on that cross. In a sense, that's the whole point and I think throughout Bethke's video by later statements following his first, I think he implied what he "meant." By alluding it in later statements like saying, "I was that kid being in church and viewing porn...yada yada.." and other statements... So this whole blog just seemed a little off to me at first because I think he implies what he's thinking as the video continues. (However I perfectly understand Jared's point now because of that comment he wrote that I quoted way above^ ;))<br />and I appreciate every correction and I did read Jared's replying comments..<br />It's just very simple, it's all in semantics...<br />I guess my whole point is, don't go to 2 extremes.. There's the law and then there's just being obedient to ALL of His commands as a bi-product of love for Him, vs. what I think he "meant" by religion (rules, rituals, etc. as an outcome to be justified when it was by His blood that we became justified.<br />(Romans 5:9)<br />Yes, the law are the standards we "technically" live by, but in reality I think it's His Word in its entirety, convicting us of sin by His Spirit. No more, no less:) AnYwaY, love you all! :0 )aileen ROD (ileanilaffiluv)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-58203116735477949912012-01-14T03:07:10.342-05:002012-01-14T03:07:10.342-05:00Thank you for this. I have been unable to put into...Thank you for this. I have been unable to put into words what bugged me about the video, and you did an fantastic job in explaining exactly what I was thinking. I'm in my early 20's, and I can say that my generation really sees that loving and forgiving side of God. The God that truly wants to develop intimacy with each one of us individually. But I can also say that so many people in my generation see words "theology" or "religion" as almost satanic. This guy seems like a great guy in all. I really respect him and admire him for putting so much thought and effort into trying to say that we don't have to live according to legalism. I definitely see what he was trying to say and agree with that. A lot of people probably got great things out of his video. If people are seeing Jesus as the loving relationship-oriented person he is, hey that's great! But... many younger Christians are fully aware of that already. I felt a little nervous that many have yet another reason to believe that Christianity should not have any structure and we should just focus on our relationship. Thank you for disagreeing in a non-aggressive sort of way. People really needed to hear thisKatienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-8355902612075398332012-01-14T00:02:21.994-05:002012-01-14T00:02:21.994-05:00ROBERT!
I hoped it was you, brother.
I have tried...ROBERT!<br />I hoped it was you, brother.<br /><br />I have tried looking you up before over the last few years, even via your old blog. The last I remembered was your cancer scare, so -- please forgive me if this is offensive -- my fear in not being able to find trace of you in the blogosphere any more was that you had gone to be with the Lord.<br /><br />Happy day!<br />Thanks for commenting. Are you blogging anywhere again?Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-41218161378322503512012-01-13T23:38:42.092-05:002012-01-13T23:38:42.092-05:00"The Greek word for ‘religion’ used in James ..."The Greek word for ‘religion’ used in James 1 is used negatively in Colossians 2:18 where it describes false asceticism, fleshly works-righteousness, and also in Acts 26:5 where Paul speaks of his pre-Christian life in strict ‘religion’. It is also used negatively in the Apocrypha to describe idol worship in Wis 14:18 and 27. <br /><br />So the word certainly has enough negative connotations to use as a title for the category of works-righteousness. In the Old Testament the prophets are devastating in their criticism of empty ritual and religious observances designed to bribe and appease God rather then serving, trusting, and loving him. The word ‘religion’ isn’t used for this approach, but it’s a good way to describe what the prophets are condemning." -Tim KellerBrian Phillipshttp://www.briankassie.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-15272436483624841132012-01-13T23:33:27.553-05:002012-01-13T23:33:27.553-05:00Interesting, although didn't Jesus, by living ...Interesting, although didn't Jesus, by living a wholly righteous sin-free life, fulfill the law to set us free from it? The law IS good, but I do not think Bethke means to equate law-keeping with religion. Rather, he seems to criticize religion's fixation with law-keeping, which, when preached as gospel, leads to guilty shamefulness for those who fail and self-righteousness for those who at least visibly succeed. The Gospel is Jesus and what His blood accomplished. The Pharisees were so caught up in religiosity that they were too blind even to recognize the Messiah when He appeared before them.<br />Jesus's blood initiates a NEW covenant which inscribes the Father's law on believers' hearts (Jer 31:33). Ez 36:26-27 says that He will give believers new hearts and puts His spirit within them (also, John 14:16-17).<br />The gospel gets at something much deeper than religion. Jesus gets to the heart. He sets us free. This is why, as Jesus proclaimed, "It is finished!" And I believe it.Allisonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-15706250365980656392012-01-13T22:19:19.281-05:002012-01-13T22:19:19.281-05:00I think a few of the points here are valid, howeve...I think a few of the points here are valid, however I feel like it is inappropriate to critique his video. I had at least 30 friends on Facebook post this video (some of them non believers.) what example are we setting to the lost to critique someone's work they are doing for the Lord? We are all his servants and it is just poetry, not a theological statement.Jaxxxssnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-7632944368171154852012-01-13T22:17:05.040-05:002012-01-13T22:17:05.040-05:00Jared, I agree with you on the confusing nature of...Jared, I agree with you on the confusing nature of the video. Thanks for posting the critique. <br /><br />And I also agree that 'religion' is not a helpful way of describing 'religious self-righteousness' - but for slightly different reasons. Namely, 'moral self-righteousness' or 'works based religion' was not really the problem that Jesus and Paul were addressing, at least not in the way that Protestants have grown accustomed to seeing it. Instead, it was primarily the socio-ethnic marker of 'law' - which became an occasion for boasting/pride among Jewish folks over and against Gentiles, women, and sinners - was the issue. Through his teaching and table practice, Jesus was demonstrating a resocialization of the covenant community by welcoming in the marginalized.<br /><br />Similarly, Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. And I do think that while he saw ongoing value in the practice of the law's piety, he absolutely lambasted the socio-ethnic marker. "The law was like a babysitter for us, looking after us until the coming of the Messiah" (Gal. 3), etc. The main purpose of the marker was to keep God's people in line until the rescue could be completed through the Son of David. Beyond that, it's useless. <br /><br />I also think that Jesus did replace the law's piety with his own kingdom teaching, in that way fulfilling it (via reinterpretation, getting to the heart, greatest commandments, sermon on the mount, etc.), but I am anabaptist :).Zach Hoaghttp://zhoag.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-18679810830078366642012-01-13T22:15:34.875-05:002012-01-13T22:15:34.875-05:00I was with you right up until you misquoted script...I was with you right up until you misquoted scripture for Matthew 5:17 to make your point. The word for Law in that passage can in no way be translated into religion.Dmaxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-84521644161951699512012-01-13T22:13:41.707-05:002012-01-13T22:13:41.707-05:00I appreciate the content and tone of this piece Ja...I appreciate the content and tone of this piece Jared. And I understand that the word religion might be heard differently by different people. But hasn't Tim Keller been using the word religion in exactly the same way for years and people don't seem to be lining up to call him out for doing it in the same way that they are with this video. <br />( for the record, i like the video, love Keller, and don't think you're being unfair on the video... a<br />Although I dont like Tom Brady!)michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09237683388595635731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-12992224193361499112012-01-13T21:35:50.847-05:002012-01-13T21:35:50.847-05:00This young man is from Mars Hill, very influenced ...This young man is from Mars Hill, very influenced from Driscoll's "Religion Saves" sermon and book. Mark denigrates the word "religion" in the modern context, but failed to teach what Jesus and His brother James meant by religion. IOW, the bridge was never built to begin an true historical context.<br /><br />Very good post Pastor Jarred.Sonjahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12400678595605810974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-36706780928463507202012-01-13T21:33:11.250-05:002012-01-13T21:33:11.250-05:00Ironic, that this web site is titled "The Gos...Ironic, that this web site is titled "The Gospel Driven Church". Having read most of your rebuttals to this thread, in addition with being in shock that you call those who differ from your theology "that is heresy" the title might should be altered to the Jared Driven Church, or Law Driven Church. The Gospel of Jesus is one of grace not law. <br /><br />And you commented that Jesus kept the Law perfectly.... Perhaps, you didn't read that part where Jesus worked on the Sabbath. Remember the continous scuffles with the religious leaders about working / healing on the Sabbath. <br /><br />Jesus' work on the cross was not sufficient b/c he was a perfect law keeper, but because He was blameless in the eyes of the Father....a perfect, spotless lamb. His blood did the work...not His law keeping. <br /><br />I encourage you to study grace...to encounter grace and to receive His unmerited favor and to rest in His perfect Love. Let His perfect love drive you to honor Him, to read His word with freedom, to be His hands and feet as an overflow vs. a burden. His yoke is easy (not rules, regulations and striving) His burden is light.Quiver of Arrowshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12143701891373325715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-72018098617417004472012-01-13T21:04:28.001-05:002012-01-13T21:04:28.001-05:00The Pharisees were hypocrites, Jesus called them &...The Pharisees were hypocrites, Jesus called them "white washed walls filled with dead mens bones" Mat 23:27.That was there great sin. <br />They were so tied up in tradition and showing how righteous they were that they lost sight of the God whom they were supposed to be serving. They made a great show of tithing their dill and cummin and ignored the weightier provisions of the law Mat 23:23.<br />Look to Mark 7 and see how they used their traditions to invalidate the law.<br />I agree with the video Jesus did not come to start a religion He came to nurture a relationship.<br />The Greek word translated religion in James is better translated worship, or religious worship not religion.<br />I don't practice a religion I have a personal relationship with the one who spoke when the universe leapt into existence.relationship not religionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06904309953219905563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-38596159274013139002012-01-13T20:38:43.712-05:002012-01-13T20:38:43.712-05:00It's easy to use a soap box and make statement...It's easy to use a soap box and make statements, and cling to a thought and pound a stake into the ground. I'd like to see this young man get some good guidance, but I'm very glad Jared, that you<br />wrote these truths out, and hope others will read and learn from what you are sharing, and not just listen to the video.Diane Dean Whitehttp://www.dianedeanwhite.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-25055899329602934272012-01-13T20:16:01.521-05:002012-01-13T20:16:01.521-05:00"Jesus has two enemies: sin and religion"..."Jesus has two enemies: sin and religion"--Mark Driscoll<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myk7hiEmHwQ<br /><br />Not sure if Jefferson's video is drastically different from Driscoll's, although I'd concede that Driscoll does a great job of defining the notion of "religion" better than Jefferson IF a person doesn't read the description underneath the original youtube. Thanks for the blog and discussion.Big Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16891165251327743323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-12299522404544041532012-01-13T19:54:24.624-05:002012-01-13T19:54:24.624-05:00Jared, sorry, I thought you would recognize the em...Jared, sorry, I thought you would recognize the email address. (I also thought loggin into my Google Account on this comment thing would include my last name). It's Robert Williams - I used to blog at Dead Man Blogging.<br /><br />"Galatians is ... an epic polemic against legalism, not a tract for antinomianism." - I love the way you put that!Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02245739441735074765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-65922391460634513482012-01-13T19:47:22.462-05:002012-01-13T19:47:22.462-05:00I just wanted to jump in on a couple things. Forg...I just wanted to jump in on a couple things. Forgive me if they were mentioned in earlier comments. I read a lot but not all. Let's remember that he didn't say not to obey God. He talked about before with his false 'religion' he was addicted to pornography and drank etc. He didn't say that he now has liscence to sin. It says in scripture that "the strength of sin is the law". This part of my comment goes out to many people who have commented above... Preaching the law will not lead to godliness. God's kindness leads us to repentance. I really loved the youtube video. I will echo a couple others... it was poetry, not a theological debate. I understand we need to redifine religion, but more importantly to me, many people are seeing this video which shows them the God they never knew of. They are seeing a God who loves people. As far as being 'hip' or 'cool' being the standard, I disagree. I think that the current movement of the church is beautiful and is starting to focus more on the heart of people than the (forgive the term) "religious" facade. I'm thankful for that. I see great awakening occuring in the church and I'm excited about it. I really do appreciate that you were so respectful of him in your post. To me, the reason it went viral is because it's showing who God is, not who Christians "should" be. I love it and I love seeing it posted all over. It's better than the "debatey" stuff that is such a turnoff for nonbelievers.Nicolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14461803096410559924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-76566552501674544422012-01-13T18:14:46.017-05:002012-01-13T18:14:46.017-05:00As I watched the video, it reminded me a lot of so...As I watched the video, it reminded me a lot of some of what Tim Keller has to say about religion. He, if my memory serves me right, also says that Jesus came to destroy religion. Of course, I think most people know what he means. That Jesus came to destroy the mindset of the has become more than the norm, and that is legalism, moralism, or as Tullian calls it, performancism.<br /><br />I believe this message was meant for an audience, that audience being those who have been wounded by people who say they follow Christ but lack any real evidence of Him. I am one of those people. So I really see no problem with what he says. Those who know what true religion is should understand he is not attacking that. But for those wounded by religion, those who don't understand that is what God wants, for them this message might open a door in their heart for understanding.Don Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04450645829566454612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-28333471067235765882012-01-13T17:30:56.278-05:002012-01-13T17:30:56.278-05:00Here's the thing though:
Most people now under...Here's the thing though:<br />Most people now understand religion as the legalism and tradition, the terms have been conflated not by this young man but by society and the common understanding as a whole. Now I'm saying that he shouldn't make the distinction, he should, but the fact is that using the semantics that people understand now what he's saying is exactly what you're taking about here Jared. I don't think he would be able to get to people if his started trying to correct semantics, frankly that's something that's getting away from his point. As it stands he did make your point in his video, just with different terms. The prejudices people have towards what religion is and what it means are something that takes a lot longer to change and get through to other people which would put the video off topic, so while I agree with you're point that the distinction needs to be made I also don't think there is an appropriate way to do it in a video that people will not take the wrong way. People will always take things the wrong way when their hearts are hard all we can to is follow God as best as we can and even then people will still refuse to listen.<br /><br />So again, valid point but it's getting away from the point he's making and into things he cannot make happen. So I think that's important to keep in mind to, I think it's important to keep that in mind.<br /><br />Heck, look at how that took to make clear and to try to avoid all misunderstandings. :S Sad state of affairs on all ends though when things get as bad as they are now that it becomes impossible to tell people with everyday language what it actually means without stumbling, it's the time we live in though.<br /><br />I'd like to see a follow up from him or something else though to get at that point. I'd bet it'd be interesting.Maximus_Lighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03435658711665367079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-58145527234049567092012-01-13T17:15:39.059-05:002012-01-13T17:15:39.059-05:00Evan, your humble heart is wonderful. I'd sugg...Evan, your humble heart is wonderful. I'd suggest that your own local pastor would be the best man for that job.Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-83954224406615454322012-01-13T17:12:01.750-05:002012-01-13T17:12:01.750-05:00I think the issue is that many people have grown u...I think the issue is that many people have grown up in legalistic churches that didn't understand the Gospel. They were taught that Christianity is: don't listen to this music, don't watch that, don't date, etc. We also have so many Christian groups trying to legislate morality. We have churches and "Christian" groups who give "religion" a bad name. So in many people's experiences - "religion" is viewed as the Pharisee, a set of rules to follow, law, legalism, self-righteousness, condemnation, etc. When people think "religion," a lot of people don't think of a way to follow God. They think - Rules! Condemnation! Self-righteousness! So when choosing words to contrast in defining what the Gospel is and is not, I think people understand the "religion" versus Jesus contrast in the video. The word "religion" would better be termed as self-righteousness, but that wouldn't flow well :) So, religion vs. Jesus might not be the most technically accurate choice of words, but I think in today's society - people get it. IMHO.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01665102224758070859noreply@blogger.com