tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post8681541823709576881..comments2023-06-01T10:52:44.280-04:00Comments on The Gospel-Driven Church: Numerolatry and the ChurchJaredhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-55816170609746212242008-11-24T06:29:00.000-05:002008-11-24T06:29:00.000-05:00Good post.I would always ask these two questions.1...Good post.<BR/><BR/>I would always ask these two questions.<BR/><BR/>1) Are people being "saved"?<BR/><BR/>2) Are people being "sent"?<BR/><BR/>Both of those increase the kingdom, and increase the mission of the Church at large. You can do both with 30 or 4,000 members.<BR/><BR/>I don't think small church = good<BR/>I don't think large church = good<BR/><BR/>I do think church = mission<BR/><BR/>That requires the discipleship, love, building community etc. But it has a goal, has a purpose that is beyond the Church.<BR/><BR/>I don't like the "Top ten ways to grow your church" kind of programmes. I don't like the way some megachurches scoop up thousands fo christians and actually make them less effective in their witness. The questionf or me isn't "how many do you have", but rather "how many did you reach"Blue, with a hint of amberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17689914726284208496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-57006639296866863712008-11-21T22:04:00.000-05:002008-11-21T22:04:00.000-05:00Jared,Spot on comments. I am reading the book "Go...Jared,<BR/>Spot on comments. I am reading the book "God in the Wasteland" right now for a theology class and he makes some of those same points. In fact, I pastor a small church in a small town and I keep beating back the pressure to grow for the sake of the numbers in myself. Thanks for the encouraging words.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246199873322006042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-77755476401696752942008-11-19T10:23:00.000-05:002008-11-19T10:23:00.000-05:00Yes, interesting.Reading the full article I didn't...Yes, interesting.<BR/><BR/>Reading the full article I didn't see any figures. Just references to "more" and "less." <BR/><BR/>There's no disputing anyway that most megachurches are evangelical churches, and this post of mine is not against big churches. It's against the lust for bigness.Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-41556862019374896162008-11-19T10:17:00.000-05:002008-11-19T10:17:00.000-05:00http://krusekronicle.typepad.com/kruse_kronicle/20...http://krusekronicle.typepad.com/kruse_kronicle/2008/11/survey-megachurches-more-intimate-believers-less-gullible.html<BR/><BR/>Interesting, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-43268759097019654292008-11-19T08:22:00.000-05:002008-11-19T08:22:00.000-05:00Thanks, David, for the link on Godin. Now that I ...Thanks, David, for the link on Godin. Now that I see that, it looks familiar. <BR/><BR/>It seems clear to me as well. Yet the "relevant" pastors continue to fawn all over him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-38102895107347365742008-11-18T22:23:00.000-05:002008-11-18T22:23:00.000-05:00don,try this:http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/a...don,<BR/><BR/>try this:<BR/>http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/archives/2006/10/seth_godin_on_c_1.html<BR/><BR/>i guess how you read and interpret it depends on your idea about the gospel... seems pretty clear to me, but i may be misreading it i guess?David Ruddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12572780147564110421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-57779758579022351972008-11-18T21:23:00.000-05:002008-11-18T21:23:00.000-05:00looks like it is easy for some preachers get distr...looks like it is easy for some preachers get distracted from serving a group of believers and end up focusing on becoming a successful speaker. those are two totally different works. if a person is a speaker and marketer and using the front of being a preacher, then many people that think they listening to a preacher are being deceived. <BR/><BR/>this is a very serious matter for preachers to do this.<BR/><BR/>i would much rather go to church where the pastor's heart is set on serving others in the body and teaching them about the Love of God in Jesus, and how to live this in their life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-25691327977496498402008-11-18T20:56:00.000-05:002008-11-18T20:56:00.000-05:00Jared,As always great post. Even for a Redskin fan...Jared,<BR/>As always great post. Even for a Redskin fan. I have been to Catalyst several times and I say Amen to everything you said.<BR/>I was wondering did Andy giveaway the "Furtick baptism starter kit" If so when you get done with yours could you mail it to me.Jamie Steelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13186614354346762218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-2726280739184230122008-11-18T14:54:00.000-05:002008-11-18T14:54:00.000-05:00Fantastic, point.Yes, what passes for Christianity...Fantastic, point.<BR/><BR/>Yes, what passes for Christianity (and even "church") very often isn't.<BR/><BR/>Christianity is cultural here, which is pretty much not Christianity. Or at least, isn't biblical Christianity.<BR/><BR/>In spite of this stuff, man, I'm optimistic. I really am. I know calling for reformation is inherently critical, but if I didn't think change was possible or even promised by God I wouldn't bother.<BR/><BR/>Craig Groeschel, one of the big dogs of megachurch guys, has been for the last 4-5 weeks basically telling his folks that many of them think they're Christians but probably aren't. That's incredible.Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-43617860232977280502008-11-18T14:32:00.000-05:002008-11-18T14:32:00.000-05:00Jared said - "Here in the Bible Belt the Christian...Jared said - "Here in the Bible Belt the Christians don't even take you seriously if you don't have an array of programs and services"<BR/><BR/>I live just down the buckle from you on the same belt....and this begs the question - are these "Christians" we speak of people who have actually had their heart of stone ripped out of their chest and replaced with a heart of flesh?......isn't our understanding of what a Christian is and what they would desire in a church in stark contrast to what you mention above?<BR/><BR/>I kind of go back to the manifesto you put up last week......If someone says they're holding a "Christian" card in their hand - I call.<BR/><BR/>Sorry - you're post from last week still has me fired up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-58168017951226435012008-11-18T13:38:00.000-05:002008-11-18T13:38:00.000-05:00what are these people going to do?I don't know. Mo...<I>what are these people going to do?</I><BR/><BR/>I don't know. <BR/>Most of them are oblivious to the facts. REVEAL hasn't slowed them down. Morgenthaler's about face in the wake of the research she presented recently hasn't been publicized.<BR/><BR/>I think they just keep cranking out the widgets and insisting it works.<BR/><BR/>Here in the Bible Belt the Christians don't even take you seriously if you don't have an array of programs and services. If the leaders don't catch on, reformation won't trickle down.<BR/><BR/>But it doesn't seem to be trickling up either.Jaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07454966527986478217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-18879609592567520902008-11-18T13:21:00.000-05:002008-11-18T13:21:00.000-05:00Great piece! Your thoughtful analysis of an alarmi...Great piece! Your thoughtful analysis of an alarming trend will hopefully be food for thought for many.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, in so many areas, money rules and big often means more money (and more influence). <BR/><BR/>I don't recall Jesus saying this, but perhaps he should have. "Size doesn't matter!" (Unless it is the size of the Spirit!)Sphericalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678782081301897978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-59840608432098710552008-11-18T13:08:00.000-05:002008-11-18T13:08:00.000-05:00David - Interesting point about Seth Godin. I see...David - Interesting point about Seth Godin. I see his name show up a bit on the "relevant" pastors' blogs, and I was wondering if he was a Christian. Can you point to some places on the next where he openly rejects the idea of being a Christian?<BR/><BR/>Jared - Thanks for the article. When the economy tanks, and the conferences are canceled, what are these people going to do?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-538825134834187144.post-11455149290101844112008-11-18T12:57:00.000-05:002008-11-18T12:57:00.000-05:00Very well said, Jared. Just this morning I was re...Very well said, Jared. Just this morning I was reading 1 Cor. 2:5, "that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."<BR/><BR/>It sure feels in this emerging conference-crazed evangelicalism that we've exalted the "wisdom of man" awfully high.<BR/><BR/>I noticed that Seth Godin even spoke at Catalyst (ironically, Brad Lomenick gets prominent mention in Seth's new book "Tribes"). Godin not only is not a Christian, he openly rejects the idea... and he's speaking to the "church leadership of tomorrow"? Scary.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for providing balanced commentary on this unsettling trend.David Ruddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12572780147564110421noreply@blogger.com